Dr. Klingmann of Klingmann Architecture Brand Development, recently published a book Brandscapes: Architecture in the Experience Economy. She was teaching briefly here last year and I had a chance to interview her a few days after she spoke at the Harn Art museum. I was hoping to turn it into an Archinect.com feature.
This didn’t happen however, because of various delays in transcription and editing and now almost 9 months later it seems silly to publish it as it is no longer in any way timely…I did think however to publish it here.
The text as I finished it is, follows below..
Architecture and related fields of design are entering a time of unique challenge. New opportunities and larger problems of scale are becoming issues that are affecting the practitioner and student. Moreover, in recent decades the market has begun to recognize the value of “good design” both from a marketing as well as efficiency perspective. These developments have allowed architects to assume a variety of roles including; activist, artist, urban planner, developer and brand/image makers. One of the most interesting phenomenon has been increasing use of architecture as a tool of brand development. From Adidas and Nike sports campuses to Disney World BMW Welt or even Dubai, the built environment is now seen as key factor in creating the brand experience.
Some in the profession have been slow to recognize these new conditions. Others have adopted new models of practice and analysis which embrace the concept of architecture as Brand. Indeed who better than an architect to help shape experience. Dr. Anna Klingmann of Klingmann Architecture Brand Development, recently published a book Brandscapes: Architecture in the Experience Economy. In it she argues that architecture can use the concepts and methods of branding–not as a quick-and-easy selling tool for architects but as a strategic tool for economic and cultural transformation. Interested in discussing this approach more I spoke with her after a lecture she gave at my local university.
Interview Nov 21, 2007
I started off by describing the Archinect community. What it does and who it’s audience is. We are a mix of design students, already practicing professionals, and amateurs such as myself who are simply interested in the built environment as it effects their life. Archinect I explained is a unique website because it is not just your typical “design blog”. There are discussion forums, blogs updated by current design students as well as original features and selected new items from around the world. It is quite a large and varied community.
I discussed how I came to my interest in architecture and urban design. Mainly as a result of being exposed to these fields during my undergraduate years. Many of my dearest friends were and still are architecture students.
This exposure made me aware of the huge impact our built environment has on our society as a whole. Not just issues of design but politics, social justice and even of ecology and the environment.
I explained that I have begun to think of going back to school for a design related degree. This desire has been recently stoked by some recent books I have read; including “Drosscape” and “Taking Measures Across the American Landscape” by Alan Berger and James Corner respectively.
Dr. Klingmann earned her BArch from Pratt and she then continued her graduate studies by earning a Masters Degree in Urban Development from the Architectural Association in London, followed by a PhD. in marketing and architecture from the University of Arts in Berlin.
In her earlier work published in journals such as Daedalus and AA, Dr Klingmann explored ‘a geographical space’ as created by global enterprise within the context of corporate campuses. She along with her firm’s multi-disciplinary team have formulated conceptual branding exercises for both global resort-companies and intra-city renewal. Having studied and taught in both Germany and America Dr. Klingmann has a number of useful perspectives on architecture in the globalized age. Her recent work on branding shows how architecture can serve as a corrective to the current trend of urban-development driven by private real-estate groups. Specifically, by creating developments that are more sensitive to issues of locality, place and even sustainability.
What are some of the most pressing issues facing the design communities today? How can architectural education meet these challenges. and finally what are some of the current paradigms that are shaping current practice
Q. Do you see a large difference between the graduate student experience in the United States vs the one in Europe.? If so do you see a positive in combining education in both?
A. I guess I can talk more from my teaching experience on the difference between the Europe and US. To make a long story short, I would say that design education in the US, especially in the Ivy League schools, tends to be very abstract. Kind of focused in on itself, rather than on issues that exist, and in that I find a little bit of a problem. The work is so very form driven. Architecture tends to be extremely form driven at the moment.
Using programs like Rhino to generate non-Euclidean shapes, but without regard. One might ask how one might fill these shapes, how they might address current issues that cities or developers struggle with. So in a way I would say that academia in the US is very divorced from architectural practice, more so than in Europe.
Q. Besides teaching, have you had any experiencing practicing? I have seen some of the work for projects like your Adidas-scape and the site in Prague, Praha Smichov?
A. Yeah, a few urban studies, some competitions, then I guess when I was back teaching at Cornell, I got a project with a German resort company, which went on for quite a while.
Q. Speaking of your projects, I know that at least one of them was a competition winner. Have any of those or any of your other competition entries, gone beyond the planning stages?
Are you working on any projects to be built or do you see yourself as having a more research-oriented role in both academia and practice?
A. Well it is always a big hurdle, even if you are the winner of a competition, it doesn’t mean it gets built. For example the Adidas project went on in the master-planning stages for about a year. Then the CEO changed and they ran out of money. Similarly with the resorts, things change, they might implement a part but not another one. That is especially the case when you deal with urban-scale projects. I mean there are some ideas, but there are so many political agencies involved that it really takes a long time, and then you might come back into the project. It is very involved.
Q. Stop and Go?
A. Yes, stop and go. And implementation is really a matter of years. Different agencies might work on the project at different phases. Politicians change, and then they have their own people and they want to radically re-think the project. And so forth. Realizing a project, I mean I have realized, like many architects, small projects. Right now I am working on a concept for a retail chain in Europe. And you know that may or may not go on to the next stage of implementation.
Q. You mentioned the difficulties in sometimes getting beyond the planning stages. I noticed, in the project of yours that most fascinated me, the Praha Smichov site, I noticed with that project that you are very interested in almost a/the total design of the site. Not just the building, but perhaps going into landscape, master planning. How does designing on such a scale connect with the idea that you have written about, of Experiential Design?
A. Well I think Experiential Design can really be done on every level. Right now I am working on the implementation of a retail chain. That means basically, How do you implement the brand experience in what is a very limited space? That requires the strategy and attention. Doesn’t matter if you do a resort, an urban master plan or a small-scale intervention, it is the same concept.
Q. In some of the resort plans that you worked on I was interested in a idea that you worked with, namely how you drew on zoo design for elements of designing the topography, sighting and perspective, to really create the full-scale experience for the consumer-public. How did you connect those dots between experiential-design and zoo-design?
A. Basically the Adidas campus was supposed to be a private campus and they needed a certain amount of security. The idea was that we wanted to create public/private interfaces. Bring the public in regardless. How do you do that? You have to be very concise, in how you position those boundaries. The interesting thing about zoo design, it was actually a team of Swiss designers that redesigned the Swiss zoo, but I think there is a better example in Orlando, which is called Animal World. Disney of course is the master of how to do that. So if you look at Animal World, you can allow people to access the different landscapes, viewing all those animals, bringing them as close as possible. You still want to have that illusion of open landscape, but of course you still need to keep the animals from the humans. In order to do that, they impart a lot of very interesting landscape strategies. I mean they understand animal behavior first of all, and human behavior. What animals wouldn’t trespass and how you can disguise them from the eye to allow for visual continuity. You can also use landscape, lets say, to separate different conditions, while still creating an interesting landscape. So it is very fictional.
They study the behavior and create positions so that when the visitor enters, they see the lion on that rock. But he isn’t there by accident.
And since we were dealing with sports activity the idea was that you put the sports activities in such a way that you use the landscape to enhance certain viewing angles. While still being separated. You couldn’t walk in, while still being an observer. So strategies like that, which are different, let’s say, from the way Nike designs their campus. Nike’s system is basically a private campus with a fence around. This is a very Beaux Arts way of thinking, a flat campus that doesn’t allow any interaction.
Q. It seems as if a number of your projects go beyond strictly architecture, especially, in your master planning. I am interested in how your office functions. Do you have designers from multiple disciplines? How do you draw on these numerous sorts of influences for your projects.?
A. I don’t have people from all the disciplines, it is more of an attitude, I would say. You mentioned a bunch of landscape architects who also deal with urban issues. Adrian Gueze is another example. His landscapes are very “urban”.
Q. He is from West 8, right?
A. Yeah. So in that sense, it is kind of a philosophy. And I think good architects don’t separate these issues, they never have. I don’t know if it is a recent phenomenon, in academia, that people perceive architecture as strictly boxes that sit on the ground. But I think that good architects don’t really do that.
Q. They take the entire site and it’s context into consideration?
A. Absolutely, you deal with the site and how do you create an environment rather than a box that sits on a piece of ground with a garage. It starts on the private level. I would say it is not really new in that sense. But on the other hand, I do draw on other disciplines, simple because of the nature of certain projects. You need flexible team-constellations. For example if you do a branding project, they are done with strategists. Because branding again, goes beyond just the brand environment. It becomes an issue of how a company implements a certain brand value, in service of business strategy, to make it credible to the consumer.
Q. You ended your lecture last night saying “Architects need to be more aware of these issues when they conceive their designs.”
For me the concept of branding seems as if it can be a very powerful tool, as it opens up a lot of possibilities for a designer. It gives them more scope and area, whether it is physical area or just conceptual. However, it seems as if many architects aren’t aware of these issues surrounding branding as a concept.
How can this be addressed, from the educational perspective? For instance you have dual graduate degrees, in marketing and design. Is that valuable? Should it be required or at least encouraged for designers to explore this field in their education? How can we prepare the next generation of architects and designers to be more aware of the pros and cons of brand experience? Especially, of its potential for value added design.
A. I mean basically, I think you can, to answer the question, incorporate that knowledge into architectural education. That is what I am trying to do. On a very banal level, it is simply asking yourself as an architect, What the effect of your building will be a. for the community, b. for the developer, c. for the people that occupy it
I find that for most students still, architecture is a way of self-actualization, self-expression.
And the understanding that architecture is a means, a ways to change the environment tends to be very crucial. Someone has to live there, someone has to pay for it and it is also part of a community context. And that is really the idea of branding, or what I would say is architecture as a catalyst. The vision of any good architect should be to provide added value. Right, so..
Is it that you provide added economic value, or cultural value and if so how?
And that is sort of different from perceiving architecture as a sort of selfish creation of pure form…
Q. It would seem from my perspective as someone not trained in architecture, that does seem to be the public’s general conception of architecture. That it is very focused on self-expression, of expression of form, period.
A. Yeah that is why, most people resent architects, especially developers, I think that is the interface. Those developers create projects to make money, essentially. They thus really resent working with architects who have a huge ego. Because they don’t understand those economic concerns nor do they understand the concerns of the community. So, in a way what I am trying to teach my students is to ask themselves these questions. Or to have a test scenario in the studio where for example I do collaborations with the department of real estate and the architecture students, where they have to answer to developer students. Like on a very simple level why do you want to have a shopping center here? Because it looks good? Right, I mean the developer knows exactly at that point, oh it’s not feasible because there is a large shopping center just down the road, or he knows why should I pay for this slanted roof, when it costs me X amount more money. Now there may be very valid reasons why that architecture if it is built a certain way or you know is more costly and so on, may be beneficial. But the idea is to be able to develop an argument. But most students, and I would say most architects can’t answer those simple questions. Why should I pay more for your design, there should be a reason for that.
Q. In your talk yesterday you made the point that especially for small/critical practices this presents another challenge, because they now have to think not just in terms of their design. They now have to articulate in a language that can make the argument to a developer, marketers etc. This seems to tie back again to the need to somehow create that dialogue in the architecture community so that they are aware of and can perhaps learn how to present their argument in the proper “language”. However, the branding phenomenon as you have pointed out is driven by corporate business and marketing demands, so how can the architect take hold of the possibilities available to them? Especially, if the goal is to have some socially positive impact with or through the design? When, nowadays the architect so often seems to be chosen because of the added marketing or PR value their name brings to the project.
A. I think it is about developing a strategy, because the average developer is not concerned about architecture, because it is a small portion of the development process, and they generally have a very average idea of what a community should look like, basing his knowledge on previous prototypes, which may not be that great or add anything really to the environment. Now, the architect usually has the expectation to do something unique, to do something that is innovative and has added value. So the question becomes again, how do you deal with that gap? And in my opinion it is only when the architect becomes a proactive strategist. Understand the concerns of the developer and then based on these economic factors uses these factors to innovate. Right, so you use these sort of criteria and needs, not to come up with the same conventional solution but to turn it on it’s head. Possibly coming up with an innovative solution that is more profitable, because it is either unique or has a different take, brings in sustainability, I don’t know what. But that should be the goal. Not to acquiesce and follow like a sheep. It is like a judo tactic…
Q. It seems like this notion of added value that keeps coming up is problematic. Because to the developer added value is perhaps strictly in economic terms, whereas the designer is perhaps looking at ways of adding value, for the community. Whether it is public space or whatever. So how can this tension be resolved?
A. Yeah, they seem to be opposite. Sometimes developers view themselves as opponents of the community. But actually of course the idea for design is to create a win-win situation for all parties, which is innovative and differs on a case-by-case basis.
Q. You mentioned this notion of sustainability. It seems as if in the last few years, sustainability has itself become a “brand”. With LEED and other labels or tags, which can be applied to give a project, that extra cache. Obviously issues of sustainability need to be addressed, but i wonder if we can develop a more robust notion of sustainability.
A. Yeah I agree. I mean sustainability right now is a sort of trick, and you already see it on the student level. Where you know a project wastes tons of space, but know you know it is wasted space with solar panels. So that is the sort of the Wal-Mart idea of sustainability, which can be marketed, to the masses. If you take sustainability beyond this kind of politically correct green aspect, then it addresses notions of how do you make a good building, how do you create livable environments in general. That in my opinion, makes a development sustainable on a multitude of levels. Not just by adding solar panels.
Q. Exactly, sustainability seems to me to go beyond just the simple technological “fix”
A.The danger of that discussion is that now, you have a shitty building, but now it is sustainable. So the developer is happy, the city is happy and you see the thing in the urban landscape and it is a horrible design. So I think it is important that this discussion is broadened, sustainability is almost kind of an excuse for other issues at stake on the urban level. Of course higher density development is part of that and not to be so wasteful on that level. It could be a reaction to the throw-away culture. To actually you know create livable environments with buildings that last for more than 30 years, that is sustainable.
At this point in the conversation I ran out of tape. However, Dr. Klingmann and I continued to talk for another half-hour or so. Our conversation drifted back to discussing academia vs. practice and ended with a few thoughts on public space, the potential of heterogeneity, branding and locality, specifically as the last three ideas apply to Orlando and the growth of the south Floridian, Mc-burb.
A rough transcription based on hastily scratched notes follows.
I asked Dr. Klingmann to expand upon a quote by Neil Leach she used in her talk the night before, the gist of which was “academia allows for architecture without buildings”. How useful is academic architecture, and what role does it play in shaping a designer or practice? Dr. Klingmann answered that academia provides a shield from business concerns because it allows for an architect to experiment and fail. However, she cautioned that it can lead to architecture which “operates in a bubble”. In order to guard against this, research must be driven by realistic parameters. Without such realistic modeling, academic architecture devolves into abstract ideas that are not relevant. It produces innovation that can not be applied in a real world context.
In her lecture the previous night she examined the idea of a third space that is neither corporate nor civic in nature, or more accurately a hybrid of the two. I questioned whether such a space could really be viewed as public space? This is a key question especially, because this space is created by a corporation with a specifically business minded agenda. She argued that there exists an idealized paradigm of public space, which sees public space as being where politics happen. At least in America there is in fact no public space in this idealized form and therefore architects must move into this territory and hold them (the business community) accountable. This third space, must be taken seriously as it is increasingly the only “real public space” left.
Finally, I asked her if and if yes, how the concept of branding can be applied to the local. Specifically, within this context of global corporations now shaping more of our socially inhabited space. Dr. Klingmann answered that one must attract people by being unique. Avoiding, therefore “formulas of development”. She suggested analyzing the local potential of a place. Orlando for instance is struggling because it has no image, outside the context of Disney. What local features or services can be identified which would allow the city to create a self-sustaining brand. Nobody wants generic, the standardized and bland. How is Orlando different than Disney?
She concluded that key in this is a “sensibility for the land”. Developers to often ignore these facts, instead of taking advantage of these “features”.
At this point, I thanked her for her time as we were both running late. Off I went back to work, and to ponder the potentials of local sensitivity and brand creation….
The End…
For more information about Dr. Klingmann’s work, that of her firm or her books see;
Klingmann Architecture Brand Development-Brandscapes (here)
Amazon (here)
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